Get out of Teaching

Get Out of Teaching Podcast Season 4, Episode 3, Yvonne Kelly (Founder of Glow Up Careers)

July 28, 2021 Elizabeth Diacos Season 4 Episode 3
Get out of Teaching
Get Out of Teaching Podcast Season 4, Episode 3, Yvonne Kelly (Founder of Glow Up Careers)
Show Notes Transcript
Yvonne Kelly is the Founder of Glow Up Careers, an award winning Social Enterprise. 

Their mission is to Empower everyone to have the career of their dreams no matter who you are or where you are from. With a successful career in recruiting, 

Yvonne has a passion for inclusion and giving everyone the opportunity to find meaningful work. 

Chris Carlin's Links

Aired on July 28th 2021
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Publish: Jul. 28, 2021 @ 5AM Edit

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Elizabeth Diacos  0:00  
Welcome to Season 4 of the Get Out of Teaching Podcast presented by Larksong Enterprises. I'm your host, Elizabeth Diacos. I'm a career transition coach who guides overwhelmed teachers through a 5-step process out of Education and into a life they love. In this season, we'll be meeting experts from many different sectors who help people to change careers, as well as a few ex-teachers who forged a pathway into something new. I'm sure it won't surprise you to learn that what keeps people in teaching when they'd rather leave is often financial pressure. That's why today's show is sponsored by Chris Carlin, financial planner and mortgage broker from Master Your Money Now.

Chris can help you sort out your cash flow, pay down debt, and plan your financially strategic exit from teaching, making sure you take good care of everything you've worked so hard for. Chris understands personal insurance cover, and can help you to make a successful claim. So you don't have to deal with the insurance company yourself. A huge relief if you're feeling stressed and overwhelmed by money concerns. Chris is not about taking risks. He's careful to help you keep your money safe. And his fees are very reasonable. He can even help you plan for retirement. Chris cares for the caring professions, teachers and nurses, helping you to shore up your financial resources so that you'll be in a good position to leave when you're ready. Go to to book a free 30-minute chat with Chris Carlin, and master your money now. 

Episode 3. Hi, everyone, and welcome to the show. And on today's show. I'm very pleased to be interviewing Yvonne Kelly from Glow Up Careers. Hi, Yvonne. Thanks for coming on the show today. 

Yvonne Kelly  1:53  
Thank you so much for having me. 

Elizabeth Diacos  1:56  
So Yvonne, you're actually working in a similar space to what I am, working with, in career coaching helping people find new jobs. And yet you have a really interesting positive spin on what you do. Could you just share a little bit about that with us today?

Yvonne Kelly  2:11  
Yeah, sure. So my career has been working in recruitment, and for most of my most of my career life, and I love helping people find jobs. And two years ago, I launched a social enterprise called Globe Careers, which is around career coaching, from everyone from kind of school league leaver up to CEO are part of what we do is we act, we do we give back through a lot of coaching for people from diverse backgrounds, and mainly refugees and new migrants. So we work with community organizations who, who are working and supporting people from refugee and new migrant backgrounds who are struggling to find jobs, and we help them match them with a coach and help them through a program that supports them to help them find, mostly their first job in Australia.

Elizabeth Diacos  3:02  
Fantastic. And so what what are the kind of when when these people come? I know they often have issues around their visa or being allowed to work? Do you find you have to help people sort that out as well?

Yvonne Kelly  3:18  
Yeah, so we tend to find that there's lots of amazing community organizations that have job ready programs, a lot of the refugees actually do have a work visa. So they have the right to work. They have a lot of different types of visas. Education is - and which is educating what are the different visa types that they have. But most of them are available and they have work rights in Australia. Right. Okay.

Elizabeth Diacos  3:50  
So then when when you start working, or say you're the coach, if you start working with them, what are the kinds of issues that they're facing?

Yvonne Kelly  3:58  
Yeah, so it's interesting, a lot of the issues that the refugees and new migrants face are and people that was when I was recruiting, and I still recruit, I still do some recruitment. And I was finding a lot of people coming to me that had entered the job market or have been on the job market for a long time. And where finding it very overwhelming. There's so much technology now in the job search process. And so for and the refugees and the migrants, sometimes that's more overwhelming for them. And so they don't know the job market here, they don't know the processes and how it works. So if we can explain that clearly. 

And yeah, we can really help them kind of find a clear path to how they can get the resume through that technology. That's sometimes that first point where you have to put your resume onto a job board or it goes into an applicant tracking system. So and how that machine can pick up the keywords and and a human to actually read the resume. So that's the biggest hurdle for a lot of people that we see in the job market and, and more so for refugees and new migrants.

Elizabeth Diacos  5:05  
So let's just segue onto that. Because I think that's a really like crucial topic for my listeners as well, which is teachers who are trying to get out of teaching and they are looking to move into something new, perhaps a career in technology, or they want to do something in training often, or some kind of consultancy work. And I had a conversation just on LinkedIn this morning with someone who I had a brief chat to a few weeks ago. And he wants to work in the sustainability space. And I just saw someone who posted a job ad in in LinkedIn, like in as a post, and I just thought, "Oh, my gosh, that will be perfect for this guy." And I just sent him a message in the link. What's the kind of, so but he's got a teacher resume right now? Or he probably doesn't even have a resume right now? What are the sorts of things he would need to do to move out of Education and like a teaching role in a school into something like Sustainability Victoria?

Yvonne Kelly  6:07  
Yeah, so a lot of a lot of the work that we do is, is research. So really understanding the industry that you want to go into, so I'd be advising him to really research the sustainability, and jobs. So understanding what the roles are really digging into what the criteria are, then also understanding who he might be competing against for those roles. And that's where LinkedIn is great, you can actually look at whole teams and divisions and depending on what area he wants to go into, and how many of those employees are actually on LinkedIn. So some I know some government sectors, LinkedIn isn't really popular, and it's growing now. 

And, but whatever information, a lot of, and in relation to government and if it be local council, and they often have a lot of the information on the website around the organizational structure and the number of people in the teams. So really as much research as you can do, and it is ideal to speak to people who work in those industries already, and really understand what the career paths are to get in there. So if he can reach out to some of the hiring managers may be in the council or some recruiters that recruit in that space, just to get an understanding of - is there an educational gap? Like does he need to do study before he can get a job? He may not need to, but he he wants to be able to find out all of those answers to those unknown questions. 

And then once you got a clear idea, especially from a resident made perspective, it's really about putting yourself in the mindset of the hiring manager and thinking, you know, what is, you know, what is this? What does this person this candidate bring to the job? And what are those transferable skills that are going to be appealing from a teaching perspective that will transition into sustainability role? So, and that is looking at what are the duties and responsibilities in the job ads. And then ultimately, the job description. And then how can you match that back to teaching in relation to so if it's a training type of role, then those those responsibilities match quite well. It's just about making sure that you're using the language that they use in sustainability, as opposed to teaching because some of the words could be different. And that's where the keywords come in.

Elizabeth Diacos  8:32  
And so just on that, often, I would suggest to people that, you know, when there's a job posted, there'll often be a contact person. Are they a good person to speak to before you make your application.

Yvonne Kelly  8:45  

Elizabeth Diacos  8:45  
(inaudible) And what what's the...

Yvonne Kelly  8:49  
I think, once you've done your research.

Elizabeth Diacos  8:52  
Yeah, go on, sorry. 

Yvonne Kelly  8:56  
Yeah, so if you've done your research beforehand, and you know that that because obviously, the risk of ringing that person is, if you are not prepared, and they feel like you don't know what you're talking about. And they, they may, you may not come top of the list, what you want to do is definitely, you know, think about ringing that person but be super prepared. So have questions that are very, questions that are thoughtful, really thought out and, and the people are really busy. So you want to kind of make sure that you're not wasting their time. So obviously not asking questions that the information is already available in the ads. 

So you want to make sure that you're making a compelling case because it's a touch point. Often as a recruiter, if somebody rings me first and I and they're really nice, and they have great experience. Once they send the resume through I'll, I'll go in and find them and I'll go brilliant, and I know this person sounds good. Let's book him in straight away for an interview. 

Elizabeth Diacos  9:57  

Yvonne Kelly  9:57  
So I think it's absolutely...

Elizabeth Diacos  10:00  
So get you over that first hurdle, maybe at least get you in the room with the interviewee, interviewer. Nice. And in terms of preparation, are you talking about things like, like you said, look at who else is working for that that organization or that company. And maybe some of the like, you know how on LinkedIn that it's got the people have endorsed them for particular skills is that the kind of thing you should be looking for?

Yvonne Kelly  10:29  
Yeah, I think LinkedIn as much as you can find out about - working with a lot of people to help them put more on LinkedIn and kind of share a bit of their personality - the more that you can find about the hiring manager or the recruiter, and obviously, the more you can relate to them and be personable. So that's the first thing is that you've got to be kind of likable, and connect in that first instance. So the more, you can find that on LinkedIn. So there's lots of different things. And I love to look at their activity. So what they're liking and commenting. That gives you a good idea as to the type of person they are, you know, on their headline and the introduction on the LinkedIn, they might talk about, you know, we found a common connection that we both have interest in supporting refugees and new migrants. 

So that might be something that then they have, they've volunteered. Some times people talk about sport, if they're liking posts that are about sport. And you can, you can start to kind of gauge things where you can find that kind of common interest. And the more common interest you find, then that connection, so it's just the same as any human to human connection point. If you can find that, then it's much easier. And as I said, especially if you if you have a conversation, and they know that you've actually put a lot of effort and thought into your research, and you've spoken to people in the industry, and maybe you know about some projects that they're doing, maybe you know about some awards they've won, the deeper that you can kind of dig to do your research, the more compelling it will be to show how passionate you are to actually work there.

Elizabeth Diacos  12:01  
Yeah. Fantastic. I love that advice. Okay, so, so you've done that little bit of, I guess, market research, in a sense. And now it's time to write the cover letter and the resume? What are the what are the things that a recruiter's looking for when they get to that level?

Yvonne Kelly  12:20  
Yeah, so the first thing is they want to know, know that you've read the ad. So a lot of people, a lot of work we do is actually showing people how to read the job ad. And so really making sure that you're understanding who they are, and you know, location. So some simple things that you've thought about that you can, you can get there that it's going to be easily accessible for you. And you've thought about that, you've got a reason for wanting to work with that organization. So there's got to be kind of a passion or interest level. And so all of those things, things that you put into the cover letter. And but the main thing in the cover letter is really that you're meeting the criteria that they're asking for, so that you're actually ticking the box. 

And so we usually suggest kind of if they've got five criteria, you should be taking at least three to five of those in order to apply because that's, that's really the crux of what they're looking for. And then in the resume, again, just making sure that your resume aligned to the responsibilities as to what they're looking first. So yeah, making sure that that you're, yeah, that you really do understand what they want. And then you know, kind of responding back to them in a way that they've asked you to. So if they've asked you for a cover letter, that's one page, just make sure you keep it to one page. Yeah, and and we usually recommend two to four pages for your resume, depending on again, what they ask. In Australia, they don't ask. I know in the US, they often ask for a one page resume. Here, to get two to four pages is, yeah.

Elizabeth Diacos  13:56  
Yeah, okay. And I...

Yvonne Kelly  14:04  
And telling a story.

Elizabeth Diacos  14:09  
Yeah, go on, sorry.

Yvonne Kelly  14:02  
Was just gonna say that, you know, if you if you're transitioning from teaching, telling a story in your resume as to why you've done that and what you're passionate about now. So going back to the sustainability, where did that interest spark from and you know, maybe the guy you're talking about has done some volunteering in that space? Or maybe he just does, you know, things at home, sustainable, or maybe he lives a sustainable life. So any of those stories that he can put across in his resume to show that enthusiasm, and the level of interest is important. 

Elizabeth Diacos  14:37  
Yeah, yeah, okay. And so then once that's all written, and it's, you know, polished, how do you know that it's going to get through the computer system that, you know, we're looking for keywords and that kind of thing?

Yvonne Kelly  14:51  
Yeah, so again, a lot of the work that we do is around that keyword optimization to make sure that you've researched the marketplace and understand the keywords that are available. And we do that in a very hands on way with the people that we coach. And yeah, and then it's just really kind of trialing that, and tweaking. So sending applications of tracking your yeah, tracking your success. And you can also do that on LinkedIn, if it's a role that and maybe you've seen advertised on LinkedIn, you can actually track on LinkedIn, like how many people are viewing your profile and keep track of your success, and then start to tweak, if you're not getting the results that you want, then there may be keywords that are missing. 

So it's not a kind of set and forget process, unfortunately, it is something that you've kind of constantly got to be working on to make sure that you are getting that success. And unfortunately, not you know, a lot of companies don't don't respond, and the ones that do, often you don't get an understanding of why you're not successful. So it is tricky. It's yeah, you've just got to really keep positive, I think through that process.

Elizabeth Diacos  15:59  
And so would it be something like, I mean, I imagine and this is what I have done in the past is to use the words that they've used in the actual job ad, as part of the response is that, are other strategies that people should be using?

Yvonne Kelly  16:18  
Yes, I think the more that you can get, as I said, put yourself in their shoes and understand what their motivation is, and connect. It's that human to human connection. So obviously, you've got to get it through the technology first, because there may not be human intervention to look at your resume in that first point. But once you've got through that, you've got to connect with the person. So as a recruiter, like I love when I look at it, I remember really clearly I got this resume that was beautifully laid out, it was really well written, I knew that the person had read my job ad, and they ticked all the boxes that you know, it was just a really nice resume. 

And then when I opened the cover letter, I just got really excited, because it was very personalized. And it really, you're like was responding to exactly what I'd asked for. And then when I jumped on to LinkedIn, her LinkedIn profile was again, just beautifully it all followed suit. So when recruiters see any red flags, you know if there's spelling mistakes or there's, and you're, the, you know you feel, oh, this cover letter doesn't really connect to the resume. And then if you go on to LinkedIn, often, some of the dates might be out any red flags, put seeds of dice in a recruiters mind. So you want to alleviate any of that doubt. And just make sure that you're in that top position to get that job.

Elizabeth Diacos  17:35  
Right. So even things like what year you started your degree of, for instance, that kind of information? If that's if there's a disparity between that and once on your LinkedIn profile that can be a red flag. Wow.

Yvonne Kelly  17:48  
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm really sorry, I'm really big on that attention to detail. So for me, yeah. And I know for a lot of the recruiters in my, because depending on if it's a competitive role, you might have 50-100 resumes, it depends how many at the moment the market is more candidates short. So it's a good time to be looking because there's a lot less candidates for each role. And I had a meeting with my recruitment colleagues today. And they said that's getting even some of the jobs only get getting kind of five to 10 responses, where if last year, the year before, they might have been getting 50 to 100. 

Elizabeth Diacos  18:25  
Why is that? That seems strange.

Yvonne Kelly  18:28  
Yes, I think because our borders have been closed for a long time now. There's not new talents that are coming in. And some people are staying put for that security reason. And obviously, even our borders internally, we would have had a lot of talent that was moving across states. So a lot of that movement isn't happening now. And it's creating a lot of job shortages in different areas.

Elizabeth Diacos  18:54  
Okay, and where are the shortages? Maybe that's where teachers should be going.

Yvonne Kelly  18:59  
Yeah, they're actually all across the board. So I did ask that question. Our recruitment network, and I sit on the US board of the global recruitment network, and we had to catch up with our recruitment owners today. We've got about 200 in Australia, New Zealand. And yeah, they were saying that it's, yeah, it's across all job roles and industries. So it's not, it's yeah, it's kind of across the board. And it's starting even at entry, entry level type of positions. So yeah.

Elizabeth Diacos  19:30  
And it's related to the fact that people just aren't moving around as much. Is that what's happening? 

Yvonne Kelly  19:34  
Yeah, yes, yes. It's just not as many people that are, that are moving. And, it is a lot to do with, you know, especially for some of those more entry level roles, they would have got a lot of people like backpackers and people from overseas that would have come over here, and obviously, none of that. And in our recruitment network, we're always attracting talent even from New Zealand, bringing them across here, viceversa, bringing people people from the UK and Ireland come over. And you know, all the sponsorship visas, none of that is happening anymore. So it's made the talent pool very, very small.

Elizabeth Diacos  20:12  
Yeah, wow, so in a way, there's opportunities there, though, because of that, for people.

Yvonne Kelly  20:17  
There's lots of opportunities. Yeah. They're starting to, to open the thinking because they have too narrow to look at different pathways to hiring. So think for teachers, it is a really good time to start thinking about if you've had an idea in the back of your mind of maybe you want to make a move? Well, then, yeah, now is a good time, because organizations are having to be more open to looking at a diverse group of people.

Elizabeth Diacos  20:43  
Right. And do you find that like, a lot of my, the people in the Get Out of Teaching Facebook group, like, in their 40s, 50s, even a few in the 60s. So they're coming to this career change, often quite late in their own career. So they might have taught for 15, 20 or even 25 years, and now they're looking for something else to see them out till the last 15 or 20 years before retirement, are employers open to an older, you know, working force workforce, do you think?

Yvonne Kelly  21:18  
So the employees that I'm dealing with and talking to are much more open to diversity and inclusion, but I think Australia still has a long way to go. So unfortunately, there is still ageism in the marketplace, and we have a number of coaches at Glow Up who focus on supporting those who are over 50. And it is difficult, I can't say it is, it's always easy. But what I what I would say is that due to these candidate shortages, it's kind of forcing these companies to start to reassess and really think are they truly diverse, and open. And I think as a teacher, you want to find an organization and we work a lot based on values. So understanding what your values are, but what the company values are, and that they align. 

So if you've got an organization that's really going to value the experience and who you are, they're the companies that you want to be applying for, rather than ones that are, yeah, are not going to and you know, there are Glassdoor is a website, employees actually rate the companies that they work for I know Seek has the same function. So you have to take it a little bit with a pinch of salt, though, because people can kind of complain on these sites. But sometimes it can give you an overall picture. Or if you're looking on LinkedIn at an organization and say team, you'll be able to gauge what the age group, you know what the age group or the diversity in that team is. 

So that will usually give you an indication of what their kind of hiring practices are. So as I said, the more research that you can do, you'll know which organizations will be more open to valuing that level of experience. Because, for me, I've always been open to hiring people who've had more experience, because getting great value from that, and longevity. And, you know, yeah, there's like, I just think it's a no brainer, but unfortunately, not all organizations in Australia feel that way. So there is still similar for the refugees that we work with there still is racism in hiring, and there still is ageism, that's out there as well. But there are some good good organizations that are working towards helping to change that. And change those buyers

With the, the racism element is, is it? Is it racism? Or is it the language skills? Like what's the, is that, what's the actual issue? Do you think?

We see, we still see racism happening that they would prefer to some organizations would prefer to take Anglos who have good, so a lot of the refugees that we work with have great communication skills there. Yeah, they, they've kind of studied English while they're here. They've gone through job ready programs, a lot of them have been, have done volunteering. And so, you know, I think it's just because a lot of companies have hired in a certain way, often it's hard to change their thinking, and they don't realize that they've got these biases. So there is a lot of work as a member of the Australian HR Institute's goes out there Diversity and Inclusion Conference in Sydney before, before lockdown. 

And it was really interesting to see a lot of senior HR managers there that really are open to their diversity and inclusion policies. And they want to learn how they can invite more diverse groups of people and that does include that over 50 groups. So there was a stand, they're a company that supports people are over 52 to get into the workplace. So yeah, so there is a lot of work being done. But it's a it's a whole education piece. And I think because it's just not that that they they are blatantly wanting to be racist or ageist. But these companies have just recruited in one way and they've got kind of blinkers on. And, yeah, they haven't really they've been biased in their recruitment process. And, and there's a lot of technology now that can remove bias from the advertising process. There's a great tool from the UK that has come on to the marketplace where companies can put their job ads through, and it brings up to show just how biased that job ad is.

Elizabeth Diacos  24:40  
Oh wow, that sounds like a great service.

Yvonne Kelly  24:48  
Yeah, so often job ads will exclude people without really realizing based on the language that they're using. And so there's a lot of education in the market, and especially in the kind of HR and talent space to educate the recruiters and, and talent teams that their biase is real and they need to be thinking more about that inclusivity and how they can bring people in from different.

Elizabeth Diacos  26:06  
So even if we say, we're after a mature minded person, is that code, that's code for?

Yvonne Kelly  26:12  
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's hard, because you can't be biased in either direction. And it is a really tricky one, because then it can be tricky to, you know, I know, some a lot of companies are trying to balance either gender as well. But you can't be biased on your ads to you have to say we only want females for this job. So it's a really tricky balance.

Elizabeth Diacos  26:38  
Yeah, that's that's hard, isn't it? Because they're they're trying to create a balance, but they actually they can't be selective. That is a bit of a catch 22 there, isn't it? For an organization? 

Yvonne Kelly  26:53  

Elizabeth Diacos  26:54  

Yvonne Kelly  26:55  
So I know, there are some recruiters that have come on to the marketplace that are looking, and in niche and over 50s there's, you know, recruiters, now that look at one of the recruiters in our network, she's indigenous herself, and she recruits a lot of in the indigenous space. So there are different recruiters and groups that are really helping support. Yeah, those different kind of diverse groups to help. As I said, a lot of this education process and change. And I know Sydney Uni is doing a lot of research, especially around refugees to educate organizations about what we talked at the beginning around the visas and making sure that they know that it is quite a simple process, and that those barriers aren't necessary barriers to hiring these these refugees can work. So yeah, I'm overcoming some of that kind of misconception in the marketplace. And I think it's the same for the older workforce.

Elizabeth Diacos  27:50  
Okay, and that research is coming out of Sydney University you said?

Yvonne Kelly  27:54  
Yes, yeah. 

Elizabeth Diacos  27:56  
Alright, that's a good one to keep an eye out for. Okay, so I'm just going to get a little bit more personal with you now. I noticed in your background, and for the YouTube viewers, you'll be able to see it. But for the podcast listeners, Yvonne has a messy bookshelf, it looks like it's almost floor to ceiling. That's just jumbled up with books and and CDs. And it looks very exciting. It made me want to, you know, I wish I was in the same room and not on Zoom. What are you reading at the moment, Yvonne?

Yvonne Kelly  28:26  
Yeah, so I am, I just love reading. So I am a lot of the work that I've just started to collaborate with a company called Bamboda and they're very much into kindness. And there's a Facebook group called The Kindness Pandemic. And it shares little stories of people that do kind things, and just small things every day. And that's something that I'm a big advocate for. So a friend of mine for my birthday bought me this book here it's Next Door, which is small stories of people that live next door to you, or just day to day people that have done really nice kind gestures. So I'm really liking that. I just think we can all do small things to make a big difference. So yeah, that's it. 

That's one that I'm reading. And then yeah, just about to start this one with Oprah Winfrey, which is called What Happened to You. So conversations on trauma and resilience and healing. So I know a lot of people are going through, a lot of having to be resilient over the last year and a half. And I think with me, most of my family are in Ireland and in Europe, so haven't seen them in a long time. And, and you know, I know there's a lot of people in a similar position in Australia, so yeah, doing some reading around how to yeah, how to kind of be resilient and yeah, get through this strange time we're going through.

Elizabeth Diacos  29:54  
So, for the listeners, everyone's back in lockdown, or really you haven't had much lockdown up there in Sydney, but we certainly know what it's like in Melbourne. But so we're, we're trying hard to not just gloat a little bit. But also, we're really conscious what a massive impact it has on the whole country and the economy. And you know, it's a, the broader picture, not just our own personal, you know, wagging our fingers.

Yvonne Kelly  30:22  
Yeah, absolutely. And I think like, that kind of goes back to the job search as well, because now a lot of the job interviews are happening online, which was never the case before. So people are having to prepare for a video interview where maybe that's not kind of something that they've been comfortable in doing before.

Elizabeth Diacos  30:40  
Yeah, I've even heard of some places asking, instead of you might send your resume, but you send a little talk, or like a video recording talk, instead of a cover letter, or as, as a, you know, talking cover letter, which-


Yvonne Kelly  31:01  
That can be really uncomfortable for people. 

Elizabeth Diacos  31:04  
Yeah, I have, I had one client who did three recordings of the same thing to try and you know, in a car, because it was the only place she could do it, where it was quiet and you know, kind of good reception and all the rest of it. Because she just was so nervous about it, she left it to the last minute. And so she had to sort of pull over and do this recording to send off the application. But it's pretty, that can be quite intimidating. I think when especially when you're maybe not a confident speaker or you feel like it's, you know, you're okay, in front of a classroom, maybe of children, but speaking to peers on a video recording where it's going to be there forever. That can be quite intimidating. Yeah. Okay, so so what are somethings that-?

Sorry, say that again?

Yvonne Kelly  31:53  
Oh sorry, I was just saying, I think it is a bit uncomfortable for people if they haven't done it before. And for some reason, video people feel a little bit more intimidated than they do when they're standing in front of a group of people face to face. So I agree with you, I think just practice is the best thing, is just get your phone and just practice it over and over and having a script can be good, too. So that you that you can learn that and just be really comfortable with your story as well. 

Elizabeth Diacos  32:22  
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So there's some some nice tips there. You said a couple of times, you mentioned the word story. So it's really important to weave a story into your into your application so that there's this warmth and humanity that comes through, but also to show like to demonstrate the skill or the experience that you've had. So Yvonne, as we wrap up our interview today, I'm just gonna ask you one further question. What's your favorite song?

Yvonne Kelly  32:53  
My favorite song is Sailaway by David Gray. 

Elizabeth Diacos  32:57  
Oh, I didn't know. Sailaway like the Enya? There's an Enya song.

Yvonne Kelly  33:05  
Ah, yeah. It's similar. This is David Gray from the UK. So yeah, it's just a lovely, myself and my husband, we like sailing, and I love the water is my happy place. So yeah, that's my, that's my favorite song.

Elizabeth Diacos  33:20  
And so is it the tune like, what is it about it the song that you really like?

Yvonne Kelly  33:26  
Yeah, I just love the melody. And I love, it brings back a lot of really nice memories. So for me, I think music always relates to time and place. And yeah, it brings back some great summer holiday memories and add the boats and a freedom. So yeah, we yeah, we both loved to be out in the water and sailing and just the freedom and the view, and yeah.

Elizabeth Diacos  33:50  
Awesome, if I look, thank you so much for coming on the Get Out of Teaching Podcast today. I think it's been really valuable. You've opened up a shorter spotlight on so many aspects of the hiring process that I think are hidden to most people like that your average job applicant has no idea about what's going on in the background. And just those tips about looking at who else is applying for the jobs and looking at and to see if anyone's looking at your profile. And all those things have been really amazingly helpful. Thank you so much. 

Yvonne Kelly  34:26  
Excellent, thank you. I really enjoyed speaking with you today. Big shout out to YouTube. 

Elizabeth Diacos  34:34  
Oh, sorry, go on, say that you can keep going.

Yvonne Kelly  34:37  
I was gonna say a big shout out to all the teachers out there for the amazing work that you do, especially during the last year and a half. So thank you.

Elizabeth Diacos  34:46  
I'm sure that our listeners will be very grateful for that little, you know, ego boost. Thank you so much. 

If this is the kind of conversation you'd like to have, here are some ways we can make that happen. You can connect with me via my website or join the get out of teaching Facebook group or send me a message. You don't need to stay stuck in a job that makes you miserable. I offer a free 10 minute triage call to people who are ready to explore possibilities for the future. So let's have a chat. You've been listening to the get out of teaching podcast. Please share it with your teacher buddies and for shownotes and other resources visit

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